The recent talk about weapons after the Sandy Hook incident.

Author Topic: The recent talk about weapons after the Sandy Hook incident.  (Read 5559 times)

Offline Meatwad

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Re: The recent talk about weapons after the Sandy Hook incident.
« Reply #15 on: January 07, 2013, 12:50:29 AM »
Nothing keeps a criminal from buying contraband such as (if outlawed) guns, because criminals don't follow laws. Also hi
« Last Edit: January 07, 2013, 12:52:18 AM by Chase »

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Re: The recent talk about weapons after the Sandy Hook incident.
« Reply #16 on: January 07, 2013, 12:57:06 AM »
Went to the sports store today. I went down by the gun section and noticed they didn't sell legal military grade semi-auto rifles there anymore. Only shotguns, hunting rifles, and pistols. I was quite suprised on how this could happen and it lead me to think that Sandy Hook may have been the reason for the removal of that type of weapon (my favorite at that).

Offline Hazard Time

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Re: The recent talk about weapons after the Sandy Hook incident.
« Reply #17 on: January 07, 2013, 02:04:21 AM »
Went to the sports store today. I went down by the gun section and noticed they didn't sell legal military grade semi-auto rifles there anymore. Only shotguns, hunting rifles, and pistols. I was quite suprised on how this could happen and it lead me to think that Sandy Hook may have been the reason for the removal of that type of weapon (my favorite at that).

Actually, it's like that everywhere because everyone is panic-buying "assault weapons" due to the talk of restrictions.  There's a gunshop down the street from me, and it's walls are absolutely bare.  The only thing left are shotguns, hunting rifles, and pistols.

Offline Mr Jive

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Re: The recent talk about weapons after the Sandy Hook incident.
« Reply #18 on: January 07, 2013, 11:03:39 AM »
I'm just going to play Devil’s Advocate here for the sake of debate so don’t take this as my personal opinion.

In 1997 Thomas Hamilton shot dead 16 children and their teacher in Dunblane. The following year the 1997 firearms act was passed making it near impossible to own a personal handgun, since then there have been no homicides by firearm since. This act and the acts of 1968 have made England have the lowest Gun homicide rate in the world, notably 40 times smaller than the US. It took many decades but Gun crimes are pretty much non-existent in England now and honestly no one feels like they are missing out by not having guns, now the British Government is slowly cracking down on Knife crimes, trying to bring them to a halt.

Anyway this is just some food for thought to help with the discussion.

Should probably bring along the fact that the UK is a couple of islands, not a half of a continent with a long, understaffed border which criminals take advantage of in order to procure guns (untraceable guns at that) at cheaper and cheaper prices.

Replying to this and the other points - Although you are right England is very close to a country where civil war was effectively happening. During the 60's onwards gun laws were still present in England but they weren't as tight, only a short distance away was Ireland, where as you may know, is where the 'troubles' took place because of the whole IRA issue. One would assume that it would not have been too difficult to smuggle guns across the border? Bombs were smuggles across the border so one would assume that guns could and probably would have been smuggled as well? Despite this the homicide rate because of firearms was still much lower in England then quite a few American States during this period.

But this is still different from the Cartel Issues so let’s find some other examples. In Canada the Gun laws have been gradually getting stricter and stricter over the decades to the point where you cannot legally own any firearms without registering for them; as expected the gun related homicide rate has been gradually dropping as the gun laws become more and more restrictive. Still there is a clear difference isn't there? Canada doesn’t have a state that borders the Mexican border, but still, can we not assume that because Canada does border many American states criminals would be able to smuggle in illegal weapons of all kinds from over the border?

Moving away from America again let’s look at some mainland European Gun laws. Lets look at Turkey, their homicide rate is nearly 3 times smaller than America (about 0.75 per 100,000 compared to over 3 per 100,000). Their gun laws are restrictive to the point where you cannot own any automatic or semi-automatic weaponry, now unless you don't keep up with modern affairs you should know about the issues neighbouring Turkey. There is literally a heavy warzone very close to some Turkish towns and a massive border for weapons to pass over that is less well guarded then the American-Mexican border, and yet they still manage to keep their homicide rate relatively low. So if you think America can't stop an illegal trade of weapons then perhaps you need to reconsider.

Now let’s go back to America - fun fact. In 2005 the number of Gun Homicides because of accidental shootings is actually higher than the total amount of Gun homicides in the whole of Japan, Romania, Belarus, Australia, New Zealand, Germany, Spain, Austria, Estonia and is only just under Northern Ireland - and bear in mind that I skipped out quite a few countries because there were so many. Here is a list of Gun Homicide rates if your interested - http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2012/jul/22/gun-homicides-ownership-world-list

Not only that but do you really think all of the homicides are because of illegally obtained Guns alone? Think about how many people in America have died because of legally owned weaponry (also most of those accidental deaths were probably from legally owned weapons).

My final question for you all - Do any of you think that there will come a time when America might need to swallow its pride and admit that perhaps letting 88 in every 100 citizens own a tool of death is a bad idea?
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Offline Rory

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Re: The recent talk about weapons after the Sandy Hook incident.
« Reply #19 on: January 07, 2013, 12:30:47 PM »
Getting an outlawed rifle could be easier for a child, but buying it wouldn't be easy for a child unless he/she is rich... Have you noticed outlawed items are way more expensive then they really are. If you scale a gram in Amsterdam is usually balances out to 6 euroes, and prostitution is about 50 euroes for 50 minutes for anything you want. A regular rifle here could range from 1000 to 1800 dollars (supposedly an M4A1). When that is outlawed... Double, or even triple that price and that's what you are looking at for an outlawed price range. This isn't marijuana, this is a high tech harmful item that is way too popular in America. I've never seen this rifle been outlawed in America, but if it does of course the availability will be higher but the prices will be too.

tl:dr: Just because you can be able to get it doesn't me you will be able to get it.

Offline Hazard Time

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Re: The recent talk about weapons after the Sandy Hook incident.
« Reply #20 on: January 07, 2013, 12:39:38 PM »
Getting an outlawed rifle could be easier for a child, but buying it wouldn't be easy for a child unless he/she is rich... Have you noticed outlawed items are way more expensive then they really are. If you scale a gram in Amsterdam is usually balances out to 6 euroes, and prostitution is about 50 euroes for 50 minutes for anything you want. A regular rifle here could range from 1000 to 1800 dollars (supposedly an M4A1). When that is outlawed... Double, or even triple that price and that's what you are looking at for an outlawed price range. This isn't marijuana, this is a high tech harmful item that is way too popular in America. I've never seen this rifle been outlawed in America, but if it does of course the availability will be higher but the prices will be too.

tl:dr: Just because you can be able to get it doesn't me you will be able to get it.

If you're referring to a military grade weapon, then yes, that shit is expensive and close to impossible to get legally.  There is .50 caliber Barrett sniper rifle at a gunshop near me, but I don't think anyone is buying it soon, unless someone has a spare $12,000 on them.  As for civilian issue rifles, they are on average between $500 and $1000, depending on condition, manufacturer, and demand.

Offline Rory

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Re: The recent talk about weapons after the Sandy Hook incident.
« Reply #21 on: January 07, 2013, 03:04:59 PM »
Getting an outlawed rifle could be easier for a child, but buying it wouldn't be easy for a child unless he/she is rich... Have you noticed outlawed items are way more expensive then they really are. If you scale a gram in Amsterdam is usually balances out to 6 euroes, and prostitution is about 50 euroes for 50 minutes for anything you want. A regular rifle here could range from 1000 to 1800 dollars (supposedly an M4A1). When that is outlawed... Double, or even triple that price and that's what you are looking at for an outlawed price range. This isn't marijuana, this is a high tech harmful item that is way too popular in America. I've never seen this rifle been outlawed in America, but if it does of course the availability will be higher but the prices will be too.

tl:dr: Just because you can be able to get it doesn't me you will be able to get it.

If you're referring to a military grade weapon, then yes, that shit is expensive and close to impossible to get legally.  There is .50 caliber Barrett sniper rifle at a gunshop near me, but I don't think anyone is buying it soon, unless someone has a spare $12,000 on them.  As for civilian issue rifles, they are on average between $500 and $1000, depending on condition, manufacturer, and demand.
If you still double it it's a lot.

Offline Kevin

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Re: The recent talk about weapons after the Sandy Hook incident.
« Reply #22 on: January 07, 2013, 04:09:53 PM »
I'm just going to play Devil’s Advocate here for the sake of debate so don’t take this as my personal opinion.

In 1997 Thomas Hamilton shot dead 16 children and their teacher in Dunblane. The following year the 1997 firearms act was passed making it near impossible to own a personal handgun, since then there have been no homicides by firearm since. This act and the acts of 1968 have made England have the lowest Gun homicide rate in the world, notably 40 times smaller than the US. It took many decades but Gun crimes are pretty much non-existent in England now and honestly no one feels like they are missing out by not having guns, now the British Government is slowly cracking down on Knife crimes, trying to bring them to a halt.

Anyway this is just some food for thought to help with the discussion.

Should probably bring along the fact that the UK is a couple of islands, not a half of a continent with a long, understaffed border which criminals take advantage of in order to procure guns (untraceable guns at that) at cheaper and cheaper prices.

Replying to this and the other points - Although you are right England is very close to a country where civil war was effectively happening. During the 60's onwards gun laws were still present in England but they weren't as tight, only a short distance away was Ireland, where as you may know, is where the 'troubles' took place because of the whole IRA issue. One would assume that it would not have been too difficult to smuggle guns across the border? Bombs were smuggles across the border so one would assume that guns could and probably would have been smuggled as well? Despite this the homicide rate because of firearms was still much lower in England then quite a few American States during this period.

But this is still different from the Cartel Issues so let’s find some other examples. In Canada the Gun laws have been gradually getting stricter and stricter over the decades to the point where you cannot legally own any firearms without registering for them; as expected the gun related homicide rate has been gradually dropping as the gun laws become more and more restrictive. Still there is a clear difference isn't there? Canada doesn’t have a state that borders the Mexican border, but still, can we not assume that because Canada does border many American states criminals would be able to smuggle in illegal weapons of all kinds from over the border?

Moving away from America again let’s look at some mainland European Gun laws. Lets look at Turkey, their homicide rate is nearly 3 times smaller than America (about 0.75 per 100,000 compared to over 3 per 100,000). Their gun laws are restrictive to the point where you cannot own any automatic or semi-automatic weaponry, now unless you don't keep up with modern affairs you should know about the issues neighbouring Turkey. There is literally a heavy warzone very close to some Turkish towns and a massive border for weapons to pass over that is less well guarded then the American-Mexican border, and yet they still manage to keep their homicide rate relatively low. So if you think America can't stop an illegal trade of weapons then perhaps you need to reconsider.

Now let’s go back to America - fun fact. In 2005 the number of Gun Homicides because of accidental shootings is actually higher than the total amount of Gun homicides in the whole of Japan, Romania, Belarus, Australia, New Zealand, Germany, Spain, Austria, Estonia and is only just under Northern Ireland - and bear in mind that I skipped out quite a few countries because there were so many. Here is a list of Gun Homicide rates if your interested - http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2012/jul/22/gun-homicides-ownership-world-list

Not only that but do you really think all of the homicides are because of illegally obtained Guns alone? Think about how many people in America have died because of legally owned weaponry (also most of those accidental deaths were probably from legally owned weapons).

My final question for you all - Do any of you think that there will come a time when America might need to swallow its pride and admit that perhaps letting 88 in every 100 citizens own a tool of death is a bad idea?

I see you're pushing for laws here.

Two days ago, January the fifth. Five measly days into the new year. Chicago has some the tightest gun restrictions and laws in the country. There were five murders in five days with ILLEGAL firearms.

By any standards, that's too many murders. Now what if these murderers knew that Chicago has very loose gun laws, much like Texas, for example. Well they'd be fear stricken. If this mugger knows that 50% of the adults walking the street has some sort of firearm, what are the chances that they'll still try to attack them or rob them? Even if it's just a small percentage of muggings and attacks less, then it still makes a difference.

And keep in mind, America IS NOT England. Shit changes from place to place, People change from place to place. Also, as far as I know, England doesn't have as bad a crime (Gun related or not) problem as America, and that includes gangs in many cities.
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Re: The recent talk about weapons after the Sandy Hook incident.
« Reply #23 on: January 07, 2013, 04:28:40 PM »
Poverty causes crime, not the tool.

Every time poverty has gone down, the crime rate has gone down.
Guns are have almost always been constant throughout the 21st century and the crime rate has been in constant flux, but that flux almost always flows with the poverty rate, look at the 20-30s during the worst economic times in our history the crime rate was also at its worst.(You can also look at Houston after the big hurricane that flooded New Orleans)

Poverty is horrible in Chicago, thus the high crime rate. Where some where with a fairly low poverty rate like most of England has a lot less crime.
Whats happening is guns are an easy to blame easy to fix scapegoat and it needs to stop, all this is doing is distracting us from the real problems, like the poverty rate, teen birthrates, the flawed prison system and the beyond FUBAR mental healthcare system.
By them blaming firearms they're making it seem like they're helping out people while in reality all they're doing is feeding the problem and making it worst, they really need to focus on the main issues of the day.
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Offline Mr Jive

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Re: The recent talk about weapons after the Sandy Hook incident.
« Reply #24 on: January 07, 2013, 05:00:34 PM »
I'm just going to play Devil’s Advocate here for the sake of debate so don’t take this as my personal opinion.

In 1997 Thomas Hamilton shot dead 16 children and their teacher in Dunblane. The following year the 1997 firearms act was passed making it near impossible to own a personal handgun, since then there have been no homicides by firearm since. This act and the acts of 1968 have made England have the lowest Gun homicide rate in the world, notably 40 times smaller than the US. It took many decades but Gun crimes are pretty much non-existent in England now and honestly no one feels like they are missing out by not having guns, now the British Government is slowly cracking down on Knife crimes, trying to bring them to a halt.

Anyway this is just some food for thought to help with the discussion.

Should probably bring along the fact that the UK is a couple of islands, not a half of a continent with a long, understaffed border which criminals take advantage of in order to procure guns (untraceable guns at that) at cheaper and cheaper prices.

Replying to this and the other points - Although you are right England is very close to a country where civil war was effectively happening. During the 60's onwards gun laws were still present in England but they weren't as tight, only a short distance away was Ireland, where as you may know, is where the 'troubles' took place because of the whole IRA issue. One would assume that it would not have been too difficult to smuggle guns across the border? Bombs were smuggles across the border so one would assume that guns could and probably would have been smuggled as well? Despite this the homicide rate because of firearms was still much lower in England then quite a few American States during this period.

But this is still different from the Cartel Issues so let’s find some other examples. In Canada the Gun laws have been gradually getting stricter and stricter over the decades to the point where you cannot legally own any firearms without registering for them; as expected the gun related homicide rate has been gradually dropping as the gun laws become more and more restrictive. Still there is a clear difference isn't there? Canada doesn’t have a state that borders the Mexican border, but still, can we not assume that because Canada does border many American states criminals would be able to smuggle in illegal weapons of all kinds from over the border?

Moving away from America again let’s look at some mainland European Gun laws. Lets look at Turkey, their homicide rate is nearly 3 times smaller than America (about 0.75 per 100,000 compared to over 3 per 100,000). Their gun laws are restrictive to the point where you cannot own any automatic or semi-automatic weaponry, now unless you don't keep up with modern affairs you should know about the issues neighbouring Turkey. There is literally a heavy warzone very close to some Turkish towns and a massive border for weapons to pass over that is less well guarded then the American-Mexican border, and yet they still manage to keep their homicide rate relatively low. So if you think America can't stop an illegal trade of weapons then perhaps you need to reconsider.

Now let’s go back to America - fun fact. In 2005 the number of Gun Homicides because of accidental shootings is actually higher than the total amount of Gun homicides in the whole of Japan, Romania, Belarus, Australia, New Zealand, Germany, Spain, Austria, Estonia and is only just under Northern Ireland - and bear in mind that I skipped out quite a few countries because there were so many. Here is a list of Gun Homicide rates if your interested - http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2012/jul/22/gun-homicides-ownership-world-list

Not only that but do you really think all of the homicides are because of illegally obtained Guns alone? Think about how many people in America have died because of legally owned weaponry (also most of those accidental deaths were probably from legally owned weapons).

My final question for you all - Do any of you think that there will come a time when America might need to swallow its pride and admit that perhaps letting 88 in every 100 citizens own a tool of death is a bad idea?

I see you're pushing for laws here.

Two days ago, January the fifth. Five measly days into the new year. Chicago has some the tightest gun restrictions and laws in the country. There were five murders in five days with ILLEGAL firearms.

By any standards, that's too many murders. Now what if these murderers knew that Chicago has very loose gun laws, much like Texas, for example. Well they'd be fear stricken. If this mugger knows that 50% of the adults walking the street has some sort of firearm, what are the chances that they'll still try to attack them or rob them? Even if it's just a small percentage of muggings and attacks less, then it still makes a difference.

And keep in mind, America IS NOT England. Shit changes from place to place, People change from place to place. Also, as far as I know, England doesn't have as bad a crime (Gun related or not) problem as America, and that includes gangs in many cities.

Like I said before Im just playing Devils Advocate, I don't really have much of an opinion on the matter seeing as how I come from outside of the states.

First of all the bit about Chicago is an intresting point, however do you have any more detail about the nature of these crimes? If these are robering or muggings gone wrong then it is bad, but what if it is a gang issue? For example in England we still do have the occasional firearms, except for the most part they are used in gang disputes, not against innocent bystanders. Otherwise though that is a good point, but what if there were tighter gun laws in more places, surley it would become harder and harder for people to obtain illegal weapons?

Secondly I did say that America is different from England which is why I tried to give different examples, what do you think about the Turkish issue and the Canadian one as well?

And finnaly you would be suprised, I don't know about some of the other British cities but there are seriously bad gang problems in South London, however most of this is knife related instead of gun related.

Edit: Wow okay here is some interesting information I looked into. Many of you shout about how states with tight Gun laws have the most Gun related homicides so I decided to look it up. Turns out the city of New Orleans has the highest Gun related homicides, and as I expected Louisiana has the worst Gun control laws. So your argument about Chicago just became null and void.

But wait, there’s more! Detroit is the 2nd highest and their Gun laws are also pretty relaxed - you don't need a permit or to be registered to own a rifle or a shotgun. Anyway these are just statistics to counteract other people statistics, honestly by the looks of things its all just null and void as both of the statistics cancel out.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2013, 12:22:36 PM by St Panda King »
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