Catalyst Gaming
General => General Discussion => Table Talk => Topic started by: Kevin on January 04, 2013, 10:29:19 PM
-
Unless you've been completely blacked out from the media, you know what happened in Newtown, CT.
You know where I'm going with this, so I won't bother to elaborate, what is your view on the weapon restrictions and bans that are being decided in the United States right now?
-
I have a best friend who knew Adam Lanza... Yes his mom was a gun collector, but it's what drove him to so such a thing. In middle school, Adam was funny as shit, but he was put on an anti depressant medication that happened to be very strong, which has a side effect of Paranoia and other things including strange physiologic behavior. If you have ever experienced this kind of thing, everything around you tends to be disturbing to you, you don't even want to look at anything, you feel like it's a problem towards you. You could do other things to get rid of it, but you don't think about doing it... Instead you tend to think about killing the problem or yourself, unfortunately our friend Adam thought both ways couldn't go wrong. Did he have aspergers, not that my friend remembers. He never heard him skipping lines, repeating other phrases, or hesitating like you would see with a child with aspergers. The media brings shit up like they hit a light bulb, and somehow we have people scratching their heads about NRA vs Mentality support. I am for- none. I am very against the medication that went on within Adam Lanza's life. I have never taken prescription pills nor am I assigned one, but i have had experience with extremely high blood sugars and poor diet and something like that can make you want to do what Adam did. Along with banning rifles... it can end up like any other black market. Prices go up dramatically, but the accessibility also increases... A lot. I can buy a gram of Cannabis just by calling my friend and having it delivered to me for 20 bucks. I can probably go right around the corner and buy a 500 dollar Glock and walk away. Black Market wants money, not trust... If you decide to take that glock, put it to your head, and blast your fucking brains all over the wall... No problem. Same goes with drugs or any other black market product... No limits because nobody is watching you except for your wallet.
tl:dr: imo it was his pills that did most of the work, banning a rifle will make problems worse
-
20 bucks for a gram? You need to find a new dealer lol
On topic: Weapon restriction is just dumb, it will shoot violent crime rate up, just like the countries that have very strict gun laws. People who follow the law and are mentally stable won't have anything to protect themselves, and only criminals will have them.
Just because you make something illegal doesn't mean it stops the problem.
-
Ban guns, guns goes on the black market, more gang violence over which gang will sell what in some gang territory. Happenes all the time. If all the illegal drugs were legal now, crime would drop pretty rapidly or it would be reduced down to petty petty dealers and kids in upper class families with enough money to be ripped off by some dealer. (Then again, if we legalized all illegal drugs, i'm pretty sure dealers wil make a new, more dangerous drug). I know this from experience with gangs, they fight each other over territory and drug rights, well the real ones do anyway. You can call them a dirty shirt, knap head, crippled crip, sloppy donught, b down, c up, b up, c down, they won't care. Mess with their stockpile and they will look for you.
-
20 bucks for a gram? You need to find a new dealer lol
On topic: Weapon restriction is just dumb, it will shoot violent crime rate up, just like the countries that have very strict gun laws. People who follow the law and are mentally stable won't have anything to protect themselves, and only criminals will have them.
Just because you make something illegal doesn't mean it stops the problem.
1: 10 plus gas (gas to fill his giant ass Mini Van is 10 dollars)
2: Some countries keep gun laws strict and they seem to get something out of it, but they didn't ban it...
3: Exactly.
-
Speaking of gun prices, even just the THOUGHT of restrictions on "assault weapons" (a classification created by ignorant folk to describe anything that looks like an AR-15 or AK-47) has shot the prices of such weapons through the roof. Just recently, my dad is selling an RPK which he bought for $500 on some gun auction site, and it is already up to $1200. I've seen other rifles going as high as $4800. What's even more interesting is that every gunstore sold out of "assault weapons" within the first couple weeks after the Newtown incident. My dad's AR-15 didn't last a day.
Back on topic, I strongly believe that guns are NOT at fault here. As Rory said, Adam was on anti-depressants that messed with his brain, and the fact that his mom did not secure her guns properly, especially when she knew her son was going criminally insane, allowed this to happen.
Finally, I do not believe that "assault weapons" will be banned. The worst that could happen, which itself is far-fetched, is that they are deemed Class 3 (Automatic weapons and silencers are currently labelled as such), meaning you cannot gain custody of one unless you go through the full background check, which I have heard takes several months to complete. However, as has been said millions of times over, you could always just screw the system and buy them off the black market at super low prices
-
Time for the biggest shooting nut on the forums to weigh in.
Banning "Assault weapons" is stupid, it voids the true reasons for the second amendment, and that is that any civilian should have the power to fight off an invading army/corrupt government.(Yes I know what your going to say "LOL you're paranoid." No, I'm not, thats what it was first fucking put there for.), what people tend to forget, is weapons like that are use for for both hunting(AR-15 is a good "Hog gun") and sports shooting, I personally have three friends who can out shoot marines with an AR-15, with this ban, they would have a very, very hard time just getting the ammo for it.
When the first "Assault weapons ban" came around, it was stupid, it did nothing to lower(Crime went up 3% during this period) crime, but people connect guns to crime, it doesn't work that way.
People tend to go to crime like dealing drugs and joining gangs because of poverty, this has already been proven. Poverty goes up, Crime goes up, Poverty goes down, Crime goes down. its the way the world work, but instead of people doing this they're pushing their agendas and trying to remove guns because they think its the problem because its "Easier to fix" and in the mean while, we get screwed.
Personally, I know for a /FACT/ the mental healthcare system is FUBAR and needs to be fixed, but this is hard, and the easy way out is to ban these "Assault weapons" instead of sitting down and doing the proper thing and fixing it.
The Mental health care system has been fucked for a VERY long time, people abuse it, its full of legal loopholes, and the doctors just throw meds at it and expect everything to be better, this gets people /KILLED/, the guy who shoot up the theater in Colorado was crazy, the doctor knew he was potentially dangerous, but because he didn't present a "Clear and present danger"(As in he told her he wanted to shoot up a place) nothing /could/ happen with out breaking the law.
My dad's best friend got stabbed(He was a teacher in a "Last chance" school) because of a kid that was a already known and proven psychopath(He stabbed his sister for taking too long in the shower) and he got out due to legal loop holes and lack of follow up(They threw pills at him but didn't make sure he took them).
There is a lot in this nation that needs reform, guns laws, aren't one of them.
-
This is the problem with the modern age. Everything has to be peaceful and equal. No, that's not how it works. Humans have always fought and ripped at each other, that's how life works. If something bad happens in today's day and age, the government and what I like to call the "Anti Everything" parents try to ban any little aspect that was part of it.
Banning guns won't do anything. My opinion has already been stated, and that is banning rifles will only cause more trouble. Someone breaks into my house with a gun and guns are banned. What do I do? Do as they say? No, I go and grab my rifle or .44 and tell that motherfucker to leave. If it ends up in a shootout, then that's his fault for breaking in.
All in all, banning guns will only cause more trouble and chaos.
-
I'm liking what I'm seeing here, I agree with everyone's points.
And may I point out Illinois has some of the strongest gun laws in the United States, and they had upwards of I think 500 gun related murders last year alone. We're five days into the new year and there's already five gun related murders.
If you take something away, people will still get it, just by different means, and if you think criminals will follow gun control laws, you're a fucking moron, and from what I've seen, people are implying that these laws will just make all gun related crime just evaporate...
-
I'm just going to play Devil’s Advocate here for the sake of debate so don’t take this as my personal opinion.
In 1997 Thomas Hamilton shot dead 16 children and their teacher in Dunblane. The following year the 1997 firearms act was passed making it near impossible to own a personal handgun, since then there have been no homicides by firearm since. This act and the acts of 1968 have made England have the lowest Gun homicide rate in the world, notably 40 times smaller than the US. It took many decades but Gun crimes are pretty much non-existent in England now and honestly no one feels like they are missing out by not having guns, now the British Government is slowly cracking down on Knife crimes, trying to bring them to a halt.
Anyway this is just some food for thought to help with the discussion.
-
I'm just going to play Devil’s Advocate here for the sake of debate so don’t take this as my personal opinion.
In 1997 Thomas Hamilton shot dead 16 children and their teacher in Dunblane. The following year the 1997 firearms act was passed making it near impossible to own a personal handgun, since then there have been no homicides by firearm since. This act and the acts of 1968 have made England have the lowest Gun homicide rate in the world, notably 40 times smaller than the US. It took many decades but Gun crimes are pretty much non-existent in England now and honestly no one feels like they are missing out by not having guns, now the British Government is slowly cracking down on Knife crimes, trying to bring them to a halt.
Anyway this is just some food for thought to help with the discussion.
Should probably bring along the fact that the UK is a couple of islands, not a half of a continent with a long, understaffed border which criminals take advantage of in order to procure guns (untraceable guns at that) at cheaper and cheaper prices.
-
I'm just going to play Devil’s Advocate here for the sake of debate so don’t take this as my personal opinion.
In 1997 Thomas Hamilton shot dead 16 children and their teacher in Dunblane. The following year the 1997 firearms act was passed making it near impossible to own a personal handgun, since then there have been no homicides by firearm since. This act and the acts of 1968 have made England have the lowest Gun homicide rate in the world, notably 40 times smaller than the US. It took many decades but Gun crimes are pretty much non-existent in England now and honestly no one feels like they are missing out by not having guns, now the British Government is slowly cracking down on Knife crimes, trying to bring them to a halt.
Anyway this is just some food for thought to help with the discussion.
America =/= England.
The problem with comparing those two is the fact that here in America we have a problem with the Cartel and because of this a black market/high drug problem(None weed drugs almost always leads to violence down the road) so removing guns won't do anything because we're not an island, no one needs a boat to get here.
-
I'm just going to play Devil’s Advocate here for the sake of debate so don’t take this as my personal opinion.
In 1997 Thomas Hamilton shot dead 16 children and their teacher in Dunblane. The following year the 1997 firearms act was passed making it near impossible to own a personal handgun, since then there have been no homicides by firearm since. This act and the acts of 1968 have made England have the lowest Gun homicide rate in the world, notably 40 times smaller than the US. It took many decades but Gun crimes are pretty much non-existent in England now and honestly no one feels like they are missing out by not having guns, now the British Government is slowly cracking down on Knife crimes, trying to bring them to a halt.
Anyway this is just some food for thought to help with the discussion.
The thing with this is we have the second amendment. It's something Americans have cherished and loved ever since it was created. Taking it away is like taking away a lifestyle from some Americans.
-
I'm just going to play Devil’s Advocate here for the sake of debate so don’t take this as my personal opinion.
In 1997 Thomas Hamilton shot dead 16 children and their teacher in Dunblane. The following year the 1997 firearms act was passed making it near impossible to own a personal handgun, since then there have been no homicides by firearm since. This act and the acts of 1968 have made England have the lowest Gun homicide rate in the world, notably 40 times smaller than the US. It took many decades but Gun crimes are pretty much non-existent in England now and honestly no one feels like they are missing out by not having guns, now the British Government is slowly cracking down on Knife crimes, trying to bring them to a halt.
Anyway this is just some food for thought to help with the discussion.
The thing with this is we have the second amendment. It's something Americans have cherished and loved ever since it was created. Taking it away is like taking away a lifestyle from some Americans.
That, and the fact that not everyone is using their firearms to run around shooting up schools. Whether or not certain firearms are banned WILL NOT determine whether massacres continue.
-
Mental health is the problem, not guns. I could get a rifle as easily as I could get a ounce of weed illegally, albeit more expensive but money isn't the issue here. Illegalizing guns would only create more of a blackmarket for them, not only from the ones already in circulation but then they'll be smuggled in to the country like everything else.
-
Nothing keeps a criminal from buying contraband such as (if outlawed) guns, because criminals don't follow laws. Also hi
-
Went to the sports store today. I went down by the gun section and noticed they didn't sell legal military grade semi-auto rifles there anymore. Only shotguns, hunting rifles, and pistols. I was quite suprised on how this could happen and it lead me to think that Sandy Hook may have been the reason for the removal of that type of weapon (my favorite at that).
-
Went to the sports store today. I went down by the gun section and noticed they didn't sell legal military grade semi-auto rifles there anymore. Only shotguns, hunting rifles, and pistols. I was quite suprised on how this could happen and it lead me to think that Sandy Hook may have been the reason for the removal of that type of weapon (my favorite at that).
Actually, it's like that everywhere because everyone is panic-buying "assault weapons" due to the talk of restrictions. There's a gunshop down the street from me, and it's walls are absolutely bare. The only thing left are shotguns, hunting rifles, and pistols.
-
I'm just going to play Devil’s Advocate here for the sake of debate so don’t take this as my personal opinion.
In 1997 Thomas Hamilton shot dead 16 children and their teacher in Dunblane. The following year the 1997 firearms act was passed making it near impossible to own a personal handgun, since then there have been no homicides by firearm since. This act and the acts of 1968 have made England have the lowest Gun homicide rate in the world, notably 40 times smaller than the US. It took many decades but Gun crimes are pretty much non-existent in England now and honestly no one feels like they are missing out by not having guns, now the British Government is slowly cracking down on Knife crimes, trying to bring them to a halt.
Anyway this is just some food for thought to help with the discussion.
Should probably bring along the fact that the UK is a couple of islands, not a half of a continent with a long, understaffed border which criminals take advantage of in order to procure guns (untraceable guns at that) at cheaper and cheaper prices.
Replying to this and the other points - Although you are right England is very close to a country where civil war was effectively happening. During the 60's onwards gun laws were still present in England but they weren't as tight, only a short distance away was Ireland, where as you may know, is where the 'troubles' took place because of the whole IRA issue. One would assume that it would not have been too difficult to smuggle guns across the border? Bombs were smuggles across the border so one would assume that guns could and probably would have been smuggled as well? Despite this the homicide rate because of firearms was still much lower in England then quite a few American States during this period.
But this is still different from the Cartel Issues so let’s find some other examples. In Canada the Gun laws have been gradually getting stricter and stricter over the decades to the point where you cannot legally own any firearms without registering for them; as expected the gun related homicide rate has been gradually dropping as the gun laws become more and more restrictive. Still there is a clear difference isn't there? Canada doesn’t have a state that borders the Mexican border, but still, can we not assume that because Canada does border many American states criminals would be able to smuggle in illegal weapons of all kinds from over the border?
Moving away from America again let’s look at some mainland European Gun laws. Lets look at Turkey, their homicide rate is nearly 3 times smaller than America (about 0.75 per 100,000 compared to over 3 per 100,000). Their gun laws are restrictive to the point where you cannot own any automatic or semi-automatic weaponry, now unless you don't keep up with modern affairs you should know about the issues neighbouring Turkey. There is literally a heavy warzone very close to some Turkish towns and a massive border for weapons to pass over that is less well guarded then the American-Mexican border, and yet they still manage to keep their homicide rate relatively low. So if you think America can't stop an illegal trade of weapons then perhaps you need to reconsider.
Now let’s go back to America - fun fact. In 2005 the number of Gun Homicides because of accidental shootings is actually higher than the total amount of Gun homicides in the whole of Japan, Romania, Belarus, Australia, New Zealand, Germany, Spain, Austria, Estonia and is only just under Northern Ireland - and bear in mind that I skipped out quite a few countries because there were so many. Here is a list of Gun Homicide rates if your interested - http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2012/jul/22/gun-homicides-ownership-world-list
Not only that but do you really think all of the homicides are because of illegally obtained Guns alone? Think about how many people in America have died because of legally owned weaponry (also most of those accidental deaths were probably from legally owned weapons).
My final question for you all - Do any of you think that there will come a time when America might need to swallow its pride and admit that perhaps letting 88 in every 100 citizens own a tool of death is a bad idea?
-
Getting an outlawed rifle could be easier for a child, but buying it wouldn't be easy for a child unless he/she is rich... Have you noticed outlawed items are way more expensive then they really are. If you scale a gram in Amsterdam is usually balances out to 6 euroes, and prostitution is about 50 euroes for 50 minutes for anything you want. A regular rifle here could range from 1000 to 1800 dollars (supposedly an M4A1). When that is outlawed... Double, or even triple that price and that's what you are looking at for an outlawed price range. This isn't marijuana, this is a high tech harmful item that is way too popular in America. I've never seen this rifle been outlawed in America, but if it does of course the availability will be higher but the prices will be too.
tl:dr: Just because you can be able to get it doesn't me you will be able to get it.
-
Getting an outlawed rifle could be easier for a child, but buying it wouldn't be easy for a child unless he/she is rich... Have you noticed outlawed items are way more expensive then they really are. If you scale a gram in Amsterdam is usually balances out to 6 euroes, and prostitution is about 50 euroes for 50 minutes for anything you want. A regular rifle here could range from 1000 to 1800 dollars (supposedly an M4A1). When that is outlawed... Double, or even triple that price and that's what you are looking at for an outlawed price range. This isn't marijuana, this is a high tech harmful item that is way too popular in America. I've never seen this rifle been outlawed in America, but if it does of course the availability will be higher but the prices will be too.
tl:dr: Just because you can be able to get it doesn't me you will be able to get it.
If you're referring to a military grade weapon, then yes, that shit is expensive and close to impossible to get legally. There is .50 caliber Barrett sniper rifle at a gunshop near me, but I don't think anyone is buying it soon, unless someone has a spare $12,000 on them. As for civilian issue rifles, they are on average between $500 and $1000, depending on condition, manufacturer, and demand.
-
Getting an outlawed rifle could be easier for a child, but buying it wouldn't be easy for a child unless he/she is rich... Have you noticed outlawed items are way more expensive then they really are. If you scale a gram in Amsterdam is usually balances out to 6 euroes, and prostitution is about 50 euroes for 50 minutes for anything you want. A regular rifle here could range from 1000 to 1800 dollars (supposedly an M4A1). When that is outlawed... Double, or even triple that price and that's what you are looking at for an outlawed price range. This isn't marijuana, this is a high tech harmful item that is way too popular in America. I've never seen this rifle been outlawed in America, but if it does of course the availability will be higher but the prices will be too.
tl:dr: Just because you can be able to get it doesn't me you will be able to get it.
If you're referring to a military grade weapon, then yes, that shit is expensive and close to impossible to get legally. There is .50 caliber Barrett sniper rifle at a gunshop near me, but I don't think anyone is buying it soon, unless someone has a spare $12,000 on them. As for civilian issue rifles, they are on average between $500 and $1000, depending on condition, manufacturer, and demand.
If you still double it it's a lot.
-
I'm just going to play Devil’s Advocate here for the sake of debate so don’t take this as my personal opinion.
In 1997 Thomas Hamilton shot dead 16 children and their teacher in Dunblane. The following year the 1997 firearms act was passed making it near impossible to own a personal handgun, since then there have been no homicides by firearm since. This act and the acts of 1968 have made England have the lowest Gun homicide rate in the world, notably 40 times smaller than the US. It took many decades but Gun crimes are pretty much non-existent in England now and honestly no one feels like they are missing out by not having guns, now the British Government is slowly cracking down on Knife crimes, trying to bring them to a halt.
Anyway this is just some food for thought to help with the discussion.
Should probably bring along the fact that the UK is a couple of islands, not a half of a continent with a long, understaffed border which criminals take advantage of in order to procure guns (untraceable guns at that) at cheaper and cheaper prices.
Replying to this and the other points - Although you are right England is very close to a country where civil war was effectively happening. During the 60's onwards gun laws were still present in England but they weren't as tight, only a short distance away was Ireland, where as you may know, is where the 'troubles' took place because of the whole IRA issue. One would assume that it would not have been too difficult to smuggle guns across the border? Bombs were smuggles across the border so one would assume that guns could and probably would have been smuggled as well? Despite this the homicide rate because of firearms was still much lower in England then quite a few American States during this period.
But this is still different from the Cartel Issues so let’s find some other examples. In Canada the Gun laws have been gradually getting stricter and stricter over the decades to the point where you cannot legally own any firearms without registering for them; as expected the gun related homicide rate has been gradually dropping as the gun laws become more and more restrictive. Still there is a clear difference isn't there? Canada doesn’t have a state that borders the Mexican border, but still, can we not assume that because Canada does border many American states criminals would be able to smuggle in illegal weapons of all kinds from over the border?
Moving away from America again let’s look at some mainland European Gun laws. Lets look at Turkey, their homicide rate is nearly 3 times smaller than America (about 0.75 per 100,000 compared to over 3 per 100,000). Their gun laws are restrictive to the point where you cannot own any automatic or semi-automatic weaponry, now unless you don't keep up with modern affairs you should know about the issues neighbouring Turkey. There is literally a heavy warzone very close to some Turkish towns and a massive border for weapons to pass over that is less well guarded then the American-Mexican border, and yet they still manage to keep their homicide rate relatively low. So if you think America can't stop an illegal trade of weapons then perhaps you need to reconsider.
Now let’s go back to America - fun fact. In 2005 the number of Gun Homicides because of accidental shootings is actually higher than the total amount of Gun homicides in the whole of Japan, Romania, Belarus, Australia, New Zealand, Germany, Spain, Austria, Estonia and is only just under Northern Ireland - and bear in mind that I skipped out quite a few countries because there were so many. Here is a list of Gun Homicide rates if your interested - http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2012/jul/22/gun-homicides-ownership-world-list
Not only that but do you really think all of the homicides are because of illegally obtained Guns alone? Think about how many people in America have died because of legally owned weaponry (also most of those accidental deaths were probably from legally owned weapons).
My final question for you all - Do any of you think that there will come a time when America might need to swallow its pride and admit that perhaps letting 88 in every 100 citizens own a tool of death is a bad idea?
I see you're pushing for laws here.
Two days ago, January the fifth. Five measly days into the new year. Chicago has some the tightest gun restrictions and laws in the country. There were five murders in five days with ILLEGAL firearms.
By any standards, that's too many murders. Now what if these murderers knew that Chicago has very loose gun laws, much like Texas, for example. Well they'd be fear stricken. If this mugger knows that 50% of the adults walking the street has some sort of firearm, what are the chances that they'll still try to attack them or rob them? Even if it's just a small percentage of muggings and attacks less, then it still makes a difference.
And keep in mind, America IS NOT England. Shit changes from place to place, People change from place to place. Also, as far as I know, England doesn't have as bad a crime (Gun related or not) problem as America, and that includes gangs in many cities.
-
Poverty causes crime, not the tool.
Every time poverty has gone down, the crime rate has gone down.
Guns are have almost always been constant throughout the 21st century and the crime rate has been in constant flux, but that flux almost always flows with the poverty rate, look at the 20-30s during the worst economic times in our history the crime rate was also at its worst.(You can also look at Houston after the big hurricane that flooded New Orleans)
Poverty is horrible in Chicago, thus the high crime rate. Where some where with a fairly low poverty rate like most of England has a lot less crime.
Whats happening is guns are an easy to blame easy to fix scapegoat and it needs to stop, all this is doing is distracting us from the real problems, like the poverty rate, teen birthrates, the flawed prison system and the beyond FUBAR mental healthcare system.
By them blaming firearms they're making it seem like they're helping out people while in reality all they're doing is feeding the problem and making it worst, they really need to focus on the main issues of the day.
-
I'm just going to play Devil’s Advocate here for the sake of debate so don’t take this as my personal opinion.
In 1997 Thomas Hamilton shot dead 16 children and their teacher in Dunblane. The following year the 1997 firearms act was passed making it near impossible to own a personal handgun, since then there have been no homicides by firearm since. This act and the acts of 1968 have made England have the lowest Gun homicide rate in the world, notably 40 times smaller than the US. It took many decades but Gun crimes are pretty much non-existent in England now and honestly no one feels like they are missing out by not having guns, now the British Government is slowly cracking down on Knife crimes, trying to bring them to a halt.
Anyway this is just some food for thought to help with the discussion.
Should probably bring along the fact that the UK is a couple of islands, not a half of a continent with a long, understaffed border which criminals take advantage of in order to procure guns (untraceable guns at that) at cheaper and cheaper prices.
Replying to this and the other points - Although you are right England is very close to a country where civil war was effectively happening. During the 60's onwards gun laws were still present in England but they weren't as tight, only a short distance away was Ireland, where as you may know, is where the 'troubles' took place because of the whole IRA issue. One would assume that it would not have been too difficult to smuggle guns across the border? Bombs were smuggles across the border so one would assume that guns could and probably would have been smuggled as well? Despite this the homicide rate because of firearms was still much lower in England then quite a few American States during this period.
But this is still different from the Cartel Issues so let’s find some other examples. In Canada the Gun laws have been gradually getting stricter and stricter over the decades to the point where you cannot legally own any firearms without registering for them; as expected the gun related homicide rate has been gradually dropping as the gun laws become more and more restrictive. Still there is a clear difference isn't there? Canada doesn’t have a state that borders the Mexican border, but still, can we not assume that because Canada does border many American states criminals would be able to smuggle in illegal weapons of all kinds from over the border?
Moving away from America again let’s look at some mainland European Gun laws. Lets look at Turkey, their homicide rate is nearly 3 times smaller than America (about 0.75 per 100,000 compared to over 3 per 100,000). Their gun laws are restrictive to the point where you cannot own any automatic or semi-automatic weaponry, now unless you don't keep up with modern affairs you should know about the issues neighbouring Turkey. There is literally a heavy warzone very close to some Turkish towns and a massive border for weapons to pass over that is less well guarded then the American-Mexican border, and yet they still manage to keep their homicide rate relatively low. So if you think America can't stop an illegal trade of weapons then perhaps you need to reconsider.
Now let’s go back to America - fun fact. In 2005 the number of Gun Homicides because of accidental shootings is actually higher than the total amount of Gun homicides in the whole of Japan, Romania, Belarus, Australia, New Zealand, Germany, Spain, Austria, Estonia and is only just under Northern Ireland - and bear in mind that I skipped out quite a few countries because there were so many. Here is a list of Gun Homicide rates if your interested - http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2012/jul/22/gun-homicides-ownership-world-list
Not only that but do you really think all of the homicides are because of illegally obtained Guns alone? Think about how many people in America have died because of legally owned weaponry (also most of those accidental deaths were probably from legally owned weapons).
My final question for you all - Do any of you think that there will come a time when America might need to swallow its pride and admit that perhaps letting 88 in every 100 citizens own a tool of death is a bad idea?
I see you're pushing for laws here.
Two days ago, January the fifth. Five measly days into the new year. Chicago has some the tightest gun restrictions and laws in the country. There were five murders in five days with ILLEGAL firearms.
By any standards, that's too many murders. Now what if these murderers knew that Chicago has very loose gun laws, much like Texas, for example. Well they'd be fear stricken. If this mugger knows that 50% of the adults walking the street has some sort of firearm, what are the chances that they'll still try to attack them or rob them? Even if it's just a small percentage of muggings and attacks less, then it still makes a difference.
And keep in mind, America IS NOT England. Shit changes from place to place, People change from place to place. Also, as far as I know, England doesn't have as bad a crime (Gun related or not) problem as America, and that includes gangs in many cities.
Like I said before Im just playing Devils Advocate, I don't really have much of an opinion on the matter seeing as how I come from outside of the states.
First of all the bit about Chicago is an intresting point, however do you have any more detail about the nature of these crimes? If these are robering or muggings gone wrong then it is bad, but what if it is a gang issue? For example in England we still do have the occasional firearms, except for the most part they are used in gang disputes, not against innocent bystanders. Otherwise though that is a good point, but what if there were tighter gun laws in more places, surley it would become harder and harder for people to obtain illegal weapons?
Secondly I did say that America is different from England which is why I tried to give different examples, what do you think about the Turkish issue and the Canadian one as well?
And finnaly you would be suprised, I don't know about some of the other British cities but there are seriously bad gang problems in South London, however most of this is knife related instead of gun related.
Edit: Wow okay here is some interesting information I looked into. Many of you shout about how states with tight Gun laws have the most Gun related homicides so I decided to look it up. Turns out the city of New Orleans has the highest Gun related homicides, and as I expected Louisiana has the worst Gun control laws. So your argument about Chicago just became null and void.
But wait, there’s more! Detroit is the 2nd highest and their Gun laws are also pretty relaxed - you don't need a permit or to be registered to own a rifle or a shotgun. Anyway these are just statistics to counteract other people statistics, honestly by the looks of things its all just null and void as both of the statistics cancel out.