How to Convince my Friends that Communism isn't evil?

[Krisrules]

i was told communism = everyone is equal


everyone can't be equal, there is no order


which is why I believe communism fails

Not really.
There is to much elitism and corruption in humanity's heart to allow for communism to work so unless you change Humanity you cannot have a fully working Communist Economy.

Why should a barrister and a convicted criminal be equal?



Why should a student who's studied for 6 years and gotten x amount of qualifications, be equal with a junkie who's been mugging for his wages his whole life

Why do people like you resort to exaggeration? A far more intelligent question to ask before we should answer your question.

Whats wrong with exaggeration? By exaggerating I make my point more clearer, making it easier to get feedback, and try to understand others points. Which Juggernaut has done.

[Journeyman H. [UK]]

i was told communism = everyone is equal


everyone can't be equal, there is no order


which is why I believe communism fails

Not really.
There is to much elitism and corruption in humanity's heart to allow for communism to work so unless you change Humanity you cannot have a fully working Communist Economy.

Why should a barrister and a convicted criminal be equal?



Why should a student who's studied for 6 years and gotten x amount of qualifications, be equal with a junkie who's been mugging for his wages his whole life

Why do people like you resort to exaggeration? A far more intelligent question to ask before we should answer your question.

Whats wrong with exaggeration? By exaggerating I make my point more clearer, making it easier to get feedback, and try to understand others points. Which Juggernaut has done.

Placing 2 extremes does not make your point clearer. It just makes you look like that you are desperate to prove that communism fails.

What you forgot though, there is equal opportunities.
Communism advocates financial equality and equal opportunities. However the system of communism has not been done, it's always theoretical.

Like Nikolai said, natives used ideals that are deemed communist by us. However what was important about how the natives dealt with 'Politics' was that they did not label ideologies. They understood if an idea worked. They will implement it.

[Krisrules]

Placing 2 extremes does not make your point clearer. It just makes you look like that you are desperate to prove that communism fails.

I disagree

What you forgot though, there is equal opportunities

I agree that if people came together as a whole and helped each other etc it would be better,  but I don't agree that it should be forced.

Something like forced peace would never work, but if everyone saw sense and came together it would

[Journeyman H. [UK]]

Placing 2 extremes does not make your point clearer. It just makes you look like that you are desperate to prove that communism fails.

I disagree

What you forgot though, there is equal opportunities

I agree that if people came together as a whole and helped each other etc it would be better,  but I don't agree that it should be forced.

Something like forced peace would never work, but if everyone saw sense and came together it would

http://www.apa.org/news/press/releases/2011/09/cooperate-equally.aspx
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/02/110211095551.htm
http://www.physorg.com/news/2012-02-upper-class-people.html
http://www.psychologicalscience.org/index.php/news/releases/babies-know-whats-fair.html#hide

Read this, come back to me later.
If you feel that we can't force ourselves to be fair. Then what made us unfair in the first place?

Whilst you may disagree about the extremes part I mentioned. I don't understand your reason of using the 2 comparisons in the first place. It seems to me that you really want to prove that communism is wrong, even though it has been successful for humans to be productive.
Natives make use of every single resource they gathered and did not waste it. They became fully sustainable. That was success for humans to meet their basic needs.

[Krisrules]

I'm not trying to say communism is wrong; i'm trying to say that I think it won't work, because forcing peace on people will naturally cause some to rebel

[Journeyman H. [UK]]

I'm not trying to say communism is wrong; i'm trying to say that I think it won't work, because forcing peace on people will naturally cause some to rebel

How do you know? Communism has not actually been implemented.
Don't refer me to countries like Soviet Russia with leaders like Stalin. Government exists in the so called "Communist" Russia/China/Korea.

2 things that are required for it to be "Truly communist"
Removing the money system, distributing resources to the people, which increases their standards of living.
Remove a political system and not have a single person running it but keeping people united.

I will mention, that I don't advocate communism, but I definitely find that a system using politics and money is outdated. We need to stop people just using opinions and use technology and scientific methods to solve our problems.


Also read this, Krisrules.
http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2011-09/wuis-hnc090811.php

Humans are social primates. Not solitary. Therefore we would be peaceful and cooperative.
This indicates that we've been educated into being aggressive, be it our culture, or to what we are exposed.

[tics]

i was told communism = everyone is equal


everyone can't be equal, there is no order


which is why I believe communism fails

Not really.
There is to much elitism and corruption in humanity's heart to allow for communism to work so unless you change Humanity you cannot have a fully working Communist Economy.

Why should a barrister and a convicted criminal be equal?



Why should a student who's studied for 6 years and gotten x amount of qualifications, be equal with a junkie who's been mugging for his wages his whole life

Why do people like you resort to exaggeration? A far more intelligent question to ask before we should answer your question.

I agree.

Krisrules, I want you to do your homework on communism. It doesn't make everyone equal. It just unites everyone under one object: the benefit of society. A doctor still has the same socioeconomic advantages over a thug as he does in capitalism. The equality factor is that one, for example, pediatrician makes the same as another.

And while we're on this. A lot of people seem to have the idea the communism is [CITIZENS OF CITY] go build [OBJECT] at [FACTORY]. No. That's actually exactly what capitalism was when Marx wrote Das Kapital and the Communist Manifesto. Marx opened the Manifesto with the wording: "A spectre is haunting Europe - the spectre of communism." In all reality, capitalism at the time was a haunting spectre in itself. And work conditions would probably be a haunting spectre to us, today.

Yes, Kris, humanity would be required to change its thought process in order to achieve communism. Humanity was required to change its thought process in order to achieve capitalism. As I mentioned before, Karl Marx believed in stages of development. In order to reach communism realistically, we would first have to delve very deep into the possibilities of socialism, and even experiment somewhat.

People do seem to be disturbed by the anarchic principles of communism. But anarchic society does not mean a society without order. Instead, you would see the rise of democracy by way of the systems in Athens. The people would then make the decisions for the people.

The argument that communism is unreasonable because it acts upon cooperation and the good will of people wreaks of naïveté. Communism actually tends more towards our instinctive helpfulness and selflessness. The selfishness and cruel competitive nature of which you take for granted comes directly from the establishment of capitalism. Capitalism thrives through competition. Capitalism can be cut throat, or in better systems, can have fair, friendly competition. Under the United States government, such friendly competition is not possible.

[Night Haunter]

T-team fascism? Anyone?

[SoapANator]

This thread just headed to debateville

[EmperorDisasster]

This thread just headed to debateville

Yes, but it seems as though it was intentionally made for such purpose.

[SoapANator]

This thread just headed to debateville

Yes, but it seems as though it was intentionally made for such purpose.

Seems so, but it was for my friends not debating.

Oh well, continue if you wish..

[Krisrules]

The argument that communism is unreasonable because it acts upon cooperation and the good will of people wreaks of naïvete.

I thought it was forced? Im not trying to be stuck up but thats what I was taught, forcing people to be peaceful.

For the millionth time I agree that if we could be peaceful 'n shit, then it would work.
But forcing someone to do something normally results in the opposite.

[tics]

The argument that communism is unreasonable because it acts upon cooperation and the good will of people wreaks of naïvete.

I thought it was forced? Im not trying to be stuck up but thats what I was taught, forcing people to be peaceful.

For the millionth time I agree that if we could be peaceful 'n shit, then it would work.
But forcing someone to do something normally results in the opposite.

No of course it's not forced. Who would force it? There is no government. There's definitely a push to work, just as there is in capitalism. Just like in capitalism where if you don't work you don't get paid, in communism if you don't work you don't get the benefits of society. A good way of explaining that is with my previous Native American comparison. In a Native American tribe, if you didn't help with hunting or gathering, you didn't eat. Simple as that. Communism isn't meant to work on a large scale as comparable to a nation. I would honestly say you can still have it pretty large though. And even though nations wouldn't exist, there would still be regional boundaries. As in, these cities are of the Muslim faith, so they are banded together. Therefore, in their established area, a Christian settlement is unlikely. You can have large cities work with communism, it's just that the direct democratic process is difficult, and you would probably end up with having some sort of seniority rule, where the elders speak first and have more allotted time. Getting work done would take a long time.

[Journeyman H. [UK]]

The argument that communism is unreasonable because it acts upon cooperation and the good will of people wreaks of naïvete.

I thought it was forced? Im not trying to be stuck up but thats what I was taught, forcing people to be peaceful.

For the millionth time I agree that if we could be peaceful 'n shit, then it would work.
But forcing someone to do something normally results in the opposite.

To be honest, capitalism is forced on you, but why don't you complain?
You can't, because the school educates you to take advantage of someone else. Or much rather, do business with other people, as they will put it lightly.

[Krisrules]

The argument that communism is unreasonable because it acts upon cooperation and the good will of people wreaks of naïvete.

I thought it was forced? Im not trying to be stuck up but thats what I was taught, forcing people to be peaceful.

For the millionth time I agree that if we could be peaceful 'n shit, then it would work.
But forcing someone to do something normally results in the opposite.

No of course it's not forced. Who would force it? There is no government. There's definitely a push to work, just as there is in capitalism. Just like in capitalism where if you don't work you don't get paid, in communism if you don't work you don't get the benefits of society. A good way of explaining that is with my previous Native American comparison. In a Native American tribe, if you didn't help with hunting or gathering, you didn't eat. Simple as that. Communism isn't meant to work on a large scale as comparable to a nation. I would honestly say you can still have it pretty large though. And even though nations wouldn't exist, there would still be regional boundaries. As in, these cities are of the Muslim faith, so they are banded together. Therefore, in their established area, a Christian settlement is unlikely. You can have large cities work with communism, it's just that the direct democratic process is difficult, and you would probably end up with having some sort of seniority rule, where the elders speak first and have more allotted time. Getting work done would take a long time.

You have made sense and I understand communism a bit better now

The argument that communism is unreasonable because it acts upon cooperation and the good will of people wreaks of naïvete.

I thought it was forced? Im not trying to be stuck up but thats what I was taught, forcing people to be peaceful.

For the millionth time I agree that if we could be peaceful 'n shit, then it would work.
But forcing someone to do something normally results in the opposite.

To be honest, capitalism is forced on you, but why don't you complain?
You can't, because the school educates you to take advantage of someone else. Or much rather, do business with other people, as they will put it lightly.

Unless democracy is considered capitalism then no capitalism isn't being forced upon me, even if it was in democracy at least there is some extent to actually vote for a party you think will bring good