Depends on what you mean by reason Nik. If you mean for some higher purpose, no I don't. If you mean cause and effect, as in it happened because somethign caused it, then yeah sure.
You're correct in saying that defects are detrimental. Homosexuality is not detrimental though. You won't die because you're homosexual. In this day and age, the inability to reproduce or procreate is not detrimental, as many choose not to. And if you think that the core purpose of democracy is to decide what's right and wrong, then you don't have any good understanding of democracy. The core principle of democracy is upholding personal freedoms, i.e. the personal freedom to choose how to lead your life. Also, hypothetically if your false understanding of democracy's purpose was true, the majority of Americans believe that homosexuality is not wrong, and therefore the choice of society would be that people should embrace it.
You ought to research natural selection more, because your understanding of it is poor. Many qualified scientists actually do agree with exactly what I said.
Lastly, I actually did give a reason for me being gay. Scientifically, certain circumstances (whether they be genetic or from experience or any others) have made me have a more dominant attraction to males than females. So don't try to give me this crap that your intolerance and bigotry does not need a reason. You're essentially saying, "I can hate homosexuality because I can." Well, no shit Sherlock. Also, most people who argue on your side of aisle as vehemently as you are either a) religious, bible-thumping extremists, b) homosexuals who cannot accept who they are, and therefore hate others, or c) poorly educated people. Which one are you?
I've made my point here. I don't intend on posting further. Goodbye.
Ah, but hasen't homosexuality caused a division in even this day and age? Wouldn't the world be better off is scientist started insuring that homosexual children are corrected before birth? It would discontinue this arguing and the children would be no worse off for it. If it is a defect caused by complications durring birth then it is not supposed to happen and should be crushed. I was merely saying that the reason we all love democracy is it allows society to govern what is right and wrong, isn't that the entire point? Democracy at its truest form is saying that the majority knows best, no matter how uneducated and stupid they may be. The constitution is what upholds personal freedoms you fool, democracy only cares about the whole, not the individual.
In regards to natural selection, just as many scientists would agree with what I've said, otherwise your theory would be law, not theory.
My "intolerance and bigotry" does have a reason, but yes, my point was that even if I didn't, I don't need a reason to hate gay people. Also, I'm not exactly arguing vehemently, I quite enjoy this friendly little conversation we're having. Out of the three options you've given me the closest one would have to be A I guess, although none really fit me. If we are going to go by steryotypes, you are a homosexual aren't you? Are you A) A sex driven psycho that will fuck any male with a pulse, B) a flamboyant peacock with an over inflated sense of self importance, C) A homosexual who only came out of the closet so he could whine and moan about how unfair life is to his kind, or D) Some pumped up macho who hangs out in gay bars 24/7 and never does anything with his life?
I think I've made my point, although I may or may not post in the future if necessary, I do so enjoy a good debate. Goodbye for now then.
I do not agree with calling it a civil union for same-sex couples and a marriage for opposite-sex couples because this is treating gays as second class citizens. Marriage is NOT solely a religious institution. It is, first and foremost, a state institution. People get married for state benefits. The first marriages in ancient civilizations had nothing to do with religion. That is why I don't agree with it.
You are not a qualified scientists. Qualified scientists will tell you that homosexuality while not conclusively genetic, is not a defect. You also have a false understanding of natural selection. Your logic is that if it is genetic, it would die off since homosexuals can't naturally reproduce. But that would be assuming that the trait can only be dominant. Two brown-haired parents can have a blonde kid because one (or both) of the parents had the blonde gene, it just wasn't the dominant trait for hair color. Similarly, two straight parents can have a gay kid because one (or both) of the parents have the gay gene, it just wasn't the dominant trait. (That is, of course, assuming it is genetic.)
Hypothetically, however, let's assume it is a defect. Is it your place or even society's place to tell a person what to embrace and what not to embrace? Hell no. If someone's gay (like me) and fine with being gay (like me) and embraces being gay (like me) and wants to lead a happy life with a boyfriend or husband (like me), then that is their choice to embrace their sexuality. It shouldn't matter to you.
Lastly, when I said we have the most bigoted people, I didn't mean numerically. I meant that the United States has the people who are most bigoted out of other societies. Our American society is full of hatred, violence, and discrimination. If you deny that, then you are blind.
There is no proof that the first marriages were either state or religious, we don't have accurate records back then because you'd have to go back further than even the bible, so good luck arguing that point. Religions and the state have always gone hand in hand where marriage is concerned and still do, which you can't even argue since that's one of the major reasons gay marriage has been outlawed so long. That means it should be something else, if you are really only concerned with the state benefits you wouldn't care if it was named civil union and gay unions got all the same state benefits. Its not treating you as second class citizens as you get the same benefits, so you shouldn't care.
There is proof that even recessive genes that hurt the chance of survival enough will die out. If it was indeed a recessive gene then throughout all of history people who got double recessive obviously would not repopulate, and by sheer chance when people with one recessive gay gene reproduced they would still create double dominant. The sheer astronomical odds that a gene even recessive that limits the odds of reproduction that much surviving all of human's history means no "qualified" scientist would claim it to be without definate proof, of which there is none.
Defects mean they are detrimental, therefore they should be eliminated. Once a cure for homosexuality (assuming it is indeed biological) is found, a way to prevent it in new children, it should immediatly be used. It is societies place, and always has been to decide what is correct, that is the entire point of democracy. Why it matters to me is my own buisness just like you don't have to give a reason to be gay, and like I've said, I can judge you if I want.
I would argue your last point, there are societies that are far more intollerant than ours. China for example has a heritage of sexism and discrimination towards different groups. America certainly has its bigots but you really can't say other countries cant' match or surpass us.
Leviticus also says that one must be killed if they wear clothing that is a mix of two different materials, or that if your wife is not a virgin she must be stoned. If you're going to follow any of the principles of Leviticus, you must follow all of them.
No politician is arguing to force churches to marry gays. That's a fact. You can lollygag with your idiotic ramblings all you want and try to disprove it, but you're wrong. Churches would not be required to give service as businesses are. Why? Churches don't perform civil marriages, they perform religious marriages. While many religious marriages are also civil marriages, the church is not the one performing or granting the civil marriage, the state is. Therefore, the only entities that would be required to marry gays are the individual states, not the churches. I refuse to argue with you on this particular point any further until you actually read a book. I am absolutely sick and tired of discussing politics with people who think they know everything without ever actually reading anything about the subject and automatically assuming they're correct.
While you are correct that it cannot be conclusively proven that gays are born gay, it also can't be conclusively proven that the Earth is broken up into tectonic plates. They're both theories. In science, many widely accepted statements are theories. The reality is, that in this day and age, the United States is full of know-it-all jackasses who can look at a fact or widely accepted theory and deny it on zero grounds. A theory is true so long as it isn't proven incorrect by someone. However, I can prove that you are born without hate. Factually, your personality is developed by early childhood interactions. You were taught to hate and you were taught that heterosexuality is "natural" and "right" and you were taught to feel disgust towards two gay men or two lesbian women leading happy, successful lives.
People like you who refuse to tolerate other people will be the downfall of this country. No other nation on the world has more discriminating, bigoted people than the United States. For us being the City on a Hill, we sure do set a poor example. No wonder the world hates us.
I feel almost like just posting "You mad bro?" and leaving this board, because your wording has already made it obvious that I've won the argument just by getting under your skin, but I'll take a short time to answer you. For the last time, I was simply citing bible quotes as requested, I do not use the bible to dictate what I should and should not do. I refuse to argue with you on the second point on the grounds that, just like a stated in my last post, despite all your preening about it not being a religious thing, you still refuse to agree with the idea of changing its name to Civil Union and seperating it completly from the church. You cannot conclusivly prove that I was not born with a revulsion towards gays. There are many things we don't know about the psyche upon birth and in the period afterwards when the brain developes. If we were to assume that you were born gay, it means it couldn't be a gene thing, with all the time humans have been around, the innability for gays to effectively reproduce would have seen it eliminated a long time ago. This means the most likely cause would be a complication durring birth, otherwise known as a DEFECT. Not something to be accepted and fused into society without a thought, something to be researched, cured, and eliminated. I personallyfind it more likely that being gay is either dictated by experience in society durring childhood, or a mix of both defects and experiences. Either way I see no reason for it to be embraced.
I don't really appreciate you insinuating I'm intollerant, I have no issues with many people generally discriminated against, such as blacks or asians. And saying we have more intolerant people than any other country is both debatable and biased. Since we have more people than many countries obviously that means we need to base it on a percent of population to make it fair, and given that premise I'm sure other countries have us beat in the intollerant category.
Where in the bible, exact page, line, pargraph and so forth, does it say gay marriage is wrong?
And when did Jesus, day, month, year, context, situation, did he say "Gays are wrong"?
I genuinly want to know.
There may be more but I don't really know the bible so I just looked a few up.
1 Corinthians 6:9-10 - "Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God."
Leviticus 18:22 - "Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable."
Leviticus 20:13 - "If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads."
Come @ me
But; you cannot allow such VIOLENT and horrendous writings guide your life, for you will bring yourself unto ruination. Whom dare claims they have the right to murder some one in cold blood for their preferences? Are you God, Zealot? Are you in such lofty position of power to bring death upon some one for their preferences? I doubt you are in such a lofty position; you cannot judge others without bringing judgement upon yourself.
Also, God always preached peace, and equality, whom are you to twist such words into hatred and bile?
When did I say that I was religious? Never, my opinoins are my own and I hate gays for my own reasons, and I was just quoting the bible as you asked someone to do. Also, despite all the preaching about it people like you tend to do, it doesn't require some lofty position to judge others. I can judge others how I wish, just as I do not deny others the right to judge me. For someone who was unaware that the bible had direct anti-homosexuality quotes, you seem to know a lot about what God says as well. You ever heard a Christian say that "ours is a vengeful God?" In case you haden't noticed Christians willingly pray to a God who killed off all but Noah and his family just because he didn't like how the humans turned out. After thinking of that, you really believe they're going to question if the bible tells them gay people should be killed? I don't need a lofty position or religious power to justify my views, nor do I need permission from such people either, and definatly not from you. I judge who I want to judge.
Where in the bible, exact page, line, pargraph and so forth, does it say gay marriage is wrong?
And when did Jesus, day, month, year, context, situation, did he say "Gays are wrong"?
I genuinly want to know.
There may be more but I don't really know the bible so I just looked a few up.
1 Corinthians 6:9-10 - "Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God."
Leviticus 18:22 - "Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable."
Leviticus 20:13 - "If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads."
All the people above giving me and people who dislike gays shit about being close minded, don't assume that everyone who hates gays is some redneck living in his trailer. I'm very open minded and have quite a few liberal friends that I enjoy debating with. I have a bunch of radical ideas and beliefs but that doesn't mean I'm uneducated or disgusting, it just means my opinions differ from yours.
Homosexuality and gay marriage is real simple to me...
Homosexuality: - You don't choose to be gay. How do I know? I'm gay and I didn't wake up one morning and decide to like dick. It just happened. - If two guys being happy with each other disgusts you, then you disgust me. You need to fucking learn to tolerate people if you want to survive in modern society. Does a black guy and a white girl having a relationship disgust you? I mean really, your arguments sound like those of supporters of segregation in the 1960s.
Gay marriage: - Religion has no place in a debate on gay marriage for two reasons: the First Amendment, marriage in the Bible often involved multiple wives, concubines, and slaves. - There are so many (nearly a hundred) benefits to marriage, and it's unfair to restrict that to a man and a woman. - Don't like gay marriage? Don't marry your own sex! It's really that simple.
Homosexuality: -I agree not a choice, nobody in their right mind would choose to be gay as you end up being the subject of hate and abuse. -That's like saying I'm disgusted at people who hate spiders or snakes. I didn't choose to hate gays any more than you chose to be gay. I personally don't have an issue with black/white relationships.
Gay Marriage: -The First Ammendment is actually a reason Religion does have a say in it, in that it says the government cannot make laws restricting the practices of religion, AKA, forcing churches to marry gay couples. Also you are implying that having multiple wives, concubines, and slaves is bad. You are asking people to allow gays to marry, despite how the government will not allow bigomy despite its religious nature, so I could say YOU disgust me because you are trying to insult peoples choices of marriage while only defending your own. -Marriage was, is, and always should be between a man and a woman. I've previously stated it, you want a legally recognized union, get it done by government officials and name it something else, like civil union. Keep religion out of it.
Homosexuality: - You're taught to hate, you're not born with hate.
Gay Marriage: - No politician is suggesting that churches be forced to marry. Therefore, no, religion does not belong in the argument. We're discussing civil marriage, not religious marriage. - In history, same sex marriage has happened. (Wikipedia) You must recognize before debating this that marriage is much older than the Christian faith.
Homosexuality: -You both cannot prove that I wasn't born with disgust for it, but you also can't prove that gay people are either. Neither has been proven either way.
Gay Marriage: -Actually, politicians are arguing to force churches to marry gays, under similar rules to no denial of services most buisnesses ust adhere to, since churches are considered non-profit organizations. Religion has a say in this as marriage has always been a religious practice, if you really didn't care about it not being a religious union, then you wouldn't care if it had its name changed to civil union and was not performed by a church. The fact that no one supporting gay marriage so far has said that is a good idea clearly means despite all of your anti-religion behavior, you refuse to disconnect gay marriage from the church. -While historically gay marriages have happened it is both not older than the bible, since you assumed only christians hated gays, but jewish people did too. It simply took a while for christians to become the main power in the world, but even with that the practice of banning gay marriage is much older, dating back to thousands of years B.C. back when Jesus was alive, rather than the brief span in which it was allowed during Roman times.
All the people above giving me and people who dislike gays shit about being close minded, don't assume that everyone who hates gays is some redneck living in his trailer. I'm very open minded and have quite a few liberal friends that I enjoy debating with. I have a bunch of radical ideas and beliefs but that doesn't mean I'm uneducated or disgusting, it just means my opinions differ from yours.
Homosexuality and gay marriage is real simple to me...
Homosexuality: - You don't choose to be gay. How do I know? I'm gay and I didn't wake up one morning and decide to like dick. It just happened. - If two guys being happy with each other disgusts you, then you disgust me. You need to fucking learn to tolerate people if you want to survive in modern society. Does a black guy and a white girl having a relationship disgust you? I mean really, your arguments sound like those of supporters of segregation in the 1960s.
Gay marriage: - Religion has no place in a debate on gay marriage for two reasons: the First Amendment, marriage in the Bible often involved multiple wives, concubines, and slaves. - There are so many (nearly a hundred) benefits to marriage, and it's unfair to restrict that to a man and a woman. - Don't like gay marriage? Don't marry your own sex! It's really that simple.
Homosexuality: -I agree not a choice, nobody in their right mind would choose to be gay as you end up being the subject of hate and abuse. -That's like saying I'm disgusted at people who hate spiders or snakes. I didn't choose to hate gays any more than you chose to be gay. I personally don't have an issue with black/white relationships.
Gay Marriage: -The First Ammendment is actually a reason Religion does have a say in it, in that it says the government cannot make laws restricting the practices of religion, AKA, forcing churches to marry gay couples. Also you are implying that having multiple wives, concubines, and slaves is bad. You are asking people to allow gays to marry, despite how the government will not allow bigomy despite its religious nature, so I could say YOU disgust me because you are trying to insult peoples choices of marriage while only defending your own. -Marriage was, is, and always should be between a man and a woman. I've previously stated it, you want a legally recognized union, get it done by government officials and name it something else, like civil union. Keep religion out of it.
At least try and explain your reasons other wise this image will be everyone's thoughts from now on...
Spoiler for Hiden:
That's a good bit better than what people will think if I choose to explain my reasons, plus it would take to long to explain everything that influences it in detail. For now it will suffice to just say homosexuality disgusts me.
Well, for the hate part one of the reasons I hate so many people would probably be my upbringing. My father is an incredibly cynical person who always took the time to explain to me why everyone not in our family is a greedy ignorant dumbass, but other than that probably the rest is natural. The disgust for gays I would imagine comes from being raised in a north eastern all white upper-middle class area. Pinpointing the exact origin of everthing I hate is dificult. As for religion, as I stated in my first post I'm not really a religious guy, my views are not caused by religion. I have many views that completly go against my religion, I'm barely even a Christian. And yes, I have an issue with gender equality, but that's not the point of this discussion.
Is your north eastern white upper-middle class upbringing the standard upon which millions of other peoples' lives should be valued?
Would you describe your hate as well-defined and with objective cause, or do you just hate things for reasons you can't quite pin down?
Meh, I don't really know what specifically, being region or whatever caused my disgust for gays, hard to trace back and find a cause. Anyways my hate for some things is well defined and objective, and for others its just I've always felt disgusted by it. I have specific reasons I can justify hating gays with, except those reasons spread to many things and I really don't feel like stating because I've found most people tend not to like my reasons.
Gaming Zealot, what are you doing with your time? How can you hate all these people or find them disgusting? How? I am genuinely intrigued as to how you could be so intolerant. Religion isn't set in stone, you know, it changes over the years, why not let it become more homosexual-tolerant? Also, what's up with the woman rights thing, do you have an issue with gender equality?
Well, for the hate part one of the reasons I hate so many people would probably be my upbringing. My father is an incredibly cynical person who always took the time to explain to me why everyone not in our family is a greedy ignorant dumbass, but other than that probably the rest is natural. The disgust for gays I would imagine comes from being raised in a north eastern all white upper-middle class area. Pinpointing the exact origin of everthing I hate is dificult. As for religion, as I stated in my first post I'm not really a religious guy, my views are not caused by religion. I have many views that completly go against my religion, I'm barely even a Christian. And yes, I have an issue with gender equality, but that's not the point of this discussion.
I buy, build, and then paint models. The game is basically called War Hammer 40k, and you buy squads of an army making your own team. There are about 20 armies in total I believe. You then proceed to build them up as dull grey models, and then paint them carefully. They are each about a inch tall so one unit would take a good 24 hours of work. Then you bring them back to the workshop of where you bought them at, and you can play these models as an army against friend or random people. There is also War Hammer: Lord Of The Rings, and normal War Hammer which is based for fantasy. War Hammer 40k is basically in the future where the whole universe has just war. These are some of my armies so far.
Warning both spoilers are big.
Tau Empire:
Based on long ranged combat, and their weakness is close combat.
Spoiler for Hiden:
1 Gun Drone Squad.
2x Fire Warriors.
1 Commander
Space Marines:
Based for medium to close combat. They are known to show no mercy or fear.
Spoiler for Hiden:
3x Fire Team Squads
1 Dreadnought
1 Drop Pod
1 Assault Squad
1 Recon Squad
1 Predator
1 Vanguard Squad (Remind me of OverWatch)
1 Chaplain (Commander)
If you seriously handpainted all of those, then you sir, are a badass.
As for me, I tend to just play video games like LoL, gmod, Guild wars 2, ect... However I like to get together with 5-6 friends and ply Magic the Gathering or go to tournaments for it.
God dammit our values are at stake here, and what of tradition!? I feel sick to my stomach every time I see a woman wearing pants and voting, and don't even get me started about those damned black people mingling with us good wholesome white folk! They should just STOP IT and quit being so inconsiderate, can't they see their lives upset me? I've been taught since childhood that these things that are bad, and it makes me nauseous every time I see this bullshit!
My children deserve to live in a place where good ole morality reigns supreme! By golly, them black people just aren't like us! Why can't they leave us alone and eat in their own restaurants and swim in their own swimming pools, huh?
And the nerve of women these days, cutting their hair shorter and all... such immoral choices. Women ought to know their place in society, it says so right in the Bible! If we continue to tolerate these lifestyles of sin, it will be the downfall of America.
Our very way of life is at stake! Say NO to gender equality! Say NO to racial equality!
...wait a second...
Awww, for a second I thought I had found someone who sympathized with my opinions. Well except for the black people part, however gender equality, blegh. Anyways, back to the actual topic.
They're not even frickin' close, one causes harm to other people, the other just wants the ability to legally wed. Tell me, why should two people not be allowed to marry just because it disgust you? They're not fucking flashing, they're not smoking pot, and they're not driving drunk, THEY ARE GETTING MARRIED stop trying to put MARRIAGE together with violent crimes, ANYONE can commit those crimes, just because they're gay doesn't make them more likely.
You're either incredibly dense or a kid, can't tell which. I never said the level of crime was the same, just pointing out the precident. Just because its not on the same level as murder doesn't mean the rules don't apply to it. If you read my comment at all you would know I never said the two were the same. I said I was against same sex marriage because it disgusts me, that's my opinion. Anyone CAN commit those crimes and being gay doesn't increase the chance at all, what I was pointing out is in an earlier argument you implied that every gay person was benign and free from crime, which isn't true. Finally, if you reply once again saying I'm trying to lump marriage in with violent crimes I won't waste the words replying to you. I am merely using examples to point out rules.
What exactly do you mean by rules?
Rules as in the way new legistlation is regulated and judged, aka the constitutional rules that govern what the government can and cannot do. As someone earlier said, if you desperatly need gays to marry, then get married in the government and call it a civil union, don't force churches to marry you.
They're not even frickin' close, one causes harm to other people, the other just wants the ability to legally wed. Tell me, why should two people not be allowed to marry just because it disgust you? They're not fucking flashing, they're not smoking pot, and they're not driving drunk, THEY ARE GETTING MARRIED stop trying to put MARRIAGE together with violent crimes, ANYONE can commit those crimes, just because they're gay doesn't make them more likely.
You're either incredibly dense or a kid, can't tell which. I never said the level of crime was the same, just pointing out the precident. Just because its not on the same level as murder doesn't mean the rules don't apply to it. If you read my comment at all you would know I never said the two were the same. I said I was against same sex marriage because it disgusts me, that's my opinion. Anyone CAN commit those crimes and being gay doesn't increase the chance at all, what I was pointing out is in an earlier argument you implied that every gay person was benign and free from crime, which isn't true. Finally, if you reply once again saying I'm trying to lump marriage in with violent crimes I won't waste the words replying to you. I am merely using examples to point out rules.
No one ever said that we'd be forcing churches to allow it, but the government would recognize gay unions as proper marriage.
Now, comparing gay people to murderers? REALLY? REALLY? You should slap your self for doing that. Gay people ARE ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THE SPECTRUM AS MURDERERS, they don't want to cause arm, only to love the people THEY love, and have protection from the government. Comparing them to murderers is going WAY, WAY, WAY, too far.
Get married outside fo the church? I still find it disgusting but I'm sure more people would accept it if that happened.
And are you seriously saying gay people can't be murderers? That all gay people just want to love and be marry? You're either idealistic or a fool, although I consider those practically the same thing. That asside, I was simply using murderers as an example of how your persuit of happiness can be overridden if it stomps on others. Want other examples then? Drunk driving, marajuana, public nudity, you name it.
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